We’ll cover the 10 things that make a winning listing:
(6) SEARCH TERMS
(7) OTHER KEYWORDS
(9) PPC KEYWORDS
(10) FULFILLMENT METHOD
I'll begin with a personal story...
Years ago, I lost money on Amazon and didn’t even know it.
Like many companies we sourced, sampled, got a photographer, wrote the listing, posted it. And the product did… just ok.
I thought to myself: it’s a great product, why can’t it do better? Then I realized: the listing wasn’t optimized. It was... just ok. Many shoppers couldn’t find the product on Amazon’s search engine, let alone buy it. I lose money every day it sits there… bein’ average.
So I studied copywriting, researched keywords, and got Amazon listing optimization down to a science over a period of years. I sold every single unit in that batch.
Now, my team and I optimize listings for hundreds of brands, with some doing $1m/month... and I can do the same for you. It's backed by a money-back guarantee and comes with free, unlimited revisions.
Click here to get started. Or, keep watching to see how it’s done in detail. By the time we’re done here, you’ll have learned years of optimization in minutes.
Amazon: $32.7 billion in revenue in Q3 2016. The smile in their logo is justified. The size of your slice depends on (1) getting found, then (2) converting the people that find you into buyers. Optimization solves both of these problems.
(1) Getting found comes from hardcore keyword research. If your listing has every single relevant keyword, you get the highest number of people to discover and purchase. Most listings lack keyword quality and quantity and so, lose money.
(2) Converting = when people do find you, Amazon shows them other products from all sides. If your listing doesn’t give them a reason to stay, they leave, which means a financial loss for you.
This is the yin-yang of listing optimization:
Gritty, hardcore keyword research for robots. That’s science.
Create great sales copy to convert people. That’s art.
You need both to win because Amazon’s system shows your product to people because of keywords, and people buy because of sales copy.
So now, I’ll present the complete anatomy of an Amazon listing and exactly how I make both robots and people happy. You’ll have a fully optimized asset that generates income for years to come. How does that sound? Let’s get into it.
To edit a listing that you’re selling, you’ll need an Amazon Seller Central account. Hop to sellercentral.amazon.com, and and go to Inventory > Manage Inventory > and click "Edit" next to the listing you'd like to optimize, and you’re in.
Luckily, Amazon tells you how to optimize the title in the article “Optimize Listings for Search and Browse”. I’ll leave the link right here, and in the video description.
I’ll tell you a story.
In the early 2010s, Amazon titles had generous character limits and little regulation. “Here, seller: take 500 characters and write whatever you want.” Of course, people stuffed titles with keywords for maximum ranking, then stuck their private label meat thermometer in it for good measure:
Good title for robots, bad for people. It’s messy and hard to read. Remember: balance.
In the late 2010s, Amazon policy began to favor keyword-rich but concise titles with shorter character limits. I find that, these days, sellers should keep their titles between 150 and 200 characters. Exact limits vary by category. Example:
Here’s my formula for the perfect title:
[MAIN KEYWORD] by [BRAND NAME] | [HIT 3 KEYWORDS WITH HIGH SEARCH VOLUME] + [VALUE PROP] + [STYLE OR QUANTITY IF APPLICABLE]
We’ll do it together, ready?
[MAIN KEYWORD] = you’re in a crowded downtown intersection with your product in your hand. You show it to someone and ask: “what is this?” Assuming they’re a regular person, they say: “What are you, simple? That’s a [MAIN KEYWORD].” That’s how you want to start your listing. The first words are what people search for most.
But how do you know what the most-used keyword is? You may think you know, but to be sure, go to the Google Keyword Planner Tool, which gives you month search volume on Google Searches.
So for example, the listing above uses “Jump Rope” as its lead keyword.
But what about “skipping rope”? How do we know more people aren’t looking for that? To make sure, go to this link: https://adwords.google.com/KeywordPlanner (if you haven’t used it before, you need to create an account. It’s cool, I can wait). Results: “jump rope” with 10k-100k average monthly searches; “skipping rope”-- same range. When it’s a draw like this, lead with the keyword that describes your product more accurately. In this case, this is a sporty rope. It’s more “jump” and less “skip”, and I agree with their decision.
Same story with these earphones that lead with "Bluetooth Headphones":
You can get keywords from the Google Keyword Planner Tool or software like MerchantWords. Google’s tool is free and MerchantWords is $30/month. However, it’s important to note that Google gives you search volume for Google Searches. MerchantWords gives you search volume for Amazon searches.
They’re two different search engines. For one thing, people Google for information and products, whereas Amazon searches are exclusively for products. For Amazon listing optimization, MerchantWords offers stronger data. If at all possible, get the subscription.
I have a MerchantWords subscription, so when you buy a listing optimization service from us, you’re getting keywords based on both Google and Amazon search volume, not just Google.
by [BRAND NAME] = some people say “don’t waste your character count on your brand name”. I think there’s some reason to that; we want keyword density. However, if you never broadcast your brand name, the brand never gets built. Include the brand name so that customers notice you, have good experiences, and eventually want to buy exclusively from you. With so many options on Amazon, you must foster loyalty, which begins with awareness. “The AIDA Model”, a classic marketing concept, explains that the path to a purchase starts with Awareness, then escalates to Interest, Desire, Action.
| = I like the “|” (I have no idea what’s it’s called. If you know, leave a comment) which is achieved by typing Shift + backslash (“\”). Or use a hyphen. I’m not even mad. This chunks your title into parts, making it easier for buyers to read and understand.
[HIT 3 KEYWORDS WITH HIGH SEARCH VOLUME] = after the break, get 3 strong keywords in. Think of a Venn Diagram: you want the keywords with the highest search volume that are also the most descriptive of your product.
[VALUE PROP] = a crisp encapsulation of how life will be better when the customer buys your product. They’ll repeat it to their friends and their friends say “wow”. Great ones get clicks. Here are a few from outside of Amazon FBA because this is a business, not an “Amazon business”.
> Dollar Shave Club (they sell razors): A great shave for a few bucks a month.
> Tortuga Backpacks: Everything you need without checking a bag.
> Vimeo: Make life worth watching.
> Weebly: The easiest way to make a website.
> Evernote: Remember everything.
> DeskBeers: Craft beer, delivered to your office.
> Spotify: Soundtrack your life.
When writing yours, remember that the simpler the sentence, the more “true” it sounds to people. It’s the same idea behind Occam’s Razor (the original Dollar Shave Club), the idea that “The simplest answer is usually correct.”
[STYLE OR QUANTITY IF APPLICABLE] = for example, supplements are a certain count; towels come in sets; creams in ounces. State this technical information at the end if applicable.
And lastly on this subject, a healthy dose of caution:
Avoid superlatives (#1, Best, Best-Selling). I say this because of a section in Amazon’s Prohibited Seller Activities and Actions that says:
“In addition, you may not make claims regarding a product's best seller rank in the product detail page information, including the title and description.”
To me, #1 claims are ranking claims, and I’d stay away lest the listing get de-indexed.
Use proper grammar and spelling. It should be easy to read.
Also, if the title exceeds your allotted character count… you guessed it: de-indexed. It’s real money.
And before you finalize the format of your title, Amazon has a guide with recommended formulae for certain product category. For example, if you sell bedding, they prescribe this formula:
Brand + Line/Pattern + Thread Count + Material + Size + Product Type, Color
Example: Wamsutta Luxury 400-Thread-Count Sateen Queen Sheet Set, Halo
I’ll leave this link in the video description as well. Check it out to see if your category has any particular rules.
In SellerCentral there's "Your price" and also "Sale price", which is your chance to create a "deal" feeling. This isn't for everyone. If your product is in a more austere, serious market, perhaps a price slash is unbecoming.
Whatever your slash, make it look believable.
$200 down to $10? What are you simple? No thanks.
$200 down to $175? That's better. It's a respectable product, and I get $25 off if I buy right now.
Price slashing is a good incentive in moderation, but make sure the deal doesn't call the value into question or devalue your brand (e.g. Apple products don’t go on sale; Udemy courses do).
When you're just starting out, it's better to price the item lower on average. Think about it: as long as it's above break-even, it's better to make sales at lower margins for the sake of increasing your ranking and getting reviews… rather than making no sales at all.
While we’re talking pricing, consider creating publicly listed coupon codes for modest discounts (say, 10 or 15%) to reward buying multiple units. Control this in the “Promotions” tab in Seller Central. They’ll show up in “Special Offers and Product Promotions”.
It’s a “can’t hurt, might help” tactic. Really makes sense with consumables or giftable items, where value increases with quantity.
Your title gets you found, but your photos make them click on your listing instead of others. Amazon sellers currently have 7 visible photos they can use. 7 chances to sell.
What do you do? Here's the magic distribution:
> 1 main photo. On white, product fills 85%+ of the frame. More on this below.
> 3 glamour or detail shots on white. Show off the curves, contours, details, texture. Stimulate the senses because the buyer can't be there in person.
> 3 lifestyle or benefit shots. These include photos of people using the product, written benefits, mentions of your guarantees, etc. Some call these “Hero Images”, because they allow the buyer to look at your photo, and project themselves as the hero in the post-purchase fantasy life. Images with other humans convert higher than photos of just product because humans naturally project themselves into the driver’s seat of any image.
Some Amazon prime examples:
Silicone Wedding Rings
Himalayan Salt Lamp
You can’t help it.
You look at photos of these people and project yourself into their shoes.
They’re giving and receiving love, they’re working hard at their desk (relatable?), they’re somehow energized and on another level that you can only access with your product. And most important they’re… happy. That’s what you want. That's what we all want.
People don’t buy your product; they buy what it does for them.
There’s some interesting stuff going on, like composite images to show different use cases and editing photos to include customer reviews.
Now, we come to technical specs of the photos. Who better to tell you than Amazon itself? I have all the specs in the written version of this walkthrough. *Ahem* I quote:
- TIFF (.tif/.tiff), JPEG (.jpeg/.jpg), GIF (.gif) and PNG (.png) format
- Image pixel dimensions of at least 1000 or larger in either height or width preferred
- RGB or CMYK color mode
- File names must consist of the product identifier (Amazon ASIN, 13-digit ISBN, EAN, JAN, or UPC) followed by a period and the appropriate file extension (Example: B000123456.jpg or 0237425673485.tif)
- Note: Spaces, dashes or additional characters in the filename will prevent your image from going online.
About the main image:
- The image must be the cover art or a professional photograph of the product being sold. Drawings or illustrations of the product are not allowed.
- The image must not contain gratuitous or confusing additional objects.
- The image must be in focus, professionally lit and photographed or scanned, with realistic color, and smooth edges.
- Books, Music, and Video/DVD images should be the front cover art, and fill 100% of the image frame. Jewel cases, promotional stickers, and cellophane are not allowed.
- All other products should fill 85% or more of the image frame.
- The full product must be in frame.
- Backgrounds must be pure white (RGB 255,255,255).
- The image must not contain additional text, graphics, or inset images.
- Pornographic and offensive materials are not allowed.
And for all additional images, more of the same:
- The image must be of, or pertain to, the product being sold.
- The image must be in focus, professionally lit and photographed or scanned, with realistic color, and smooth edges.
- Other products or objects are allowed to help demonstrate the use or scale of product.
- The product and props should fill 85% or more of the image frame.
- Cropped or close-up images are allowed.
- Backgrounds and environments are allowed.
- Text and demonstrative graphics are allowed.
- Pornographic and offensive materials are not allowed.
That's a lot of specs. How do we make this happen? With photos, as with writing the listing, you've got 2 options: hire a professional or do it yourself.
> Option 1: hire a professional.
As an entrepreneur, it's better not to spend time learning how to be a photographer. It takes away time from your main objective (which is sales) and someone else is better at it than you, so outsource! Send me an email at email@example.com and I’ll recommend someone tailored to the needs of your product. Preferred pricing, of course.
> Option 2: do it yourself.
Create a DIY lightbox that properly diffuses white light. We built one of these in the office back in the day. Sometimes, it’s nice to have full control over the angles and composition of your listing photos.
Also, phone photography is improving every second. There are apps like Camera+ than enhance the natural capabilities of the iPhone's native camera. At this point, phone cameras can do Amazon listings.
Of course, if you'd rather outsource there's good sense in that. Photography is key for conversions, so investing in good photos will earn you more money in the long run. As with writing the listing itself, spend on quality because it pays itself back in the long run.
We're so close to making that sale.
The buyer finds your product on Amazon based on the keywords in your title.
They click on your listing because of your pristine main photo.
They're on your listing, and the rest of your photos are good.
But they need some convincing, so they start reading your bullets and ask the universal buyer's question. What’s the question? Think about it.
The universal buyer's question is "what's in it for me?"
If they value the perceived benefit of your product more than they value their money, the scale tips and they buy. But how do you convince them that this purchase is worth more than their money?
Pitch using unstoppable human biological desires.
Here's the timeless strategy to sell anything: the "Life Force 8" from Drew Whitman's book Ca$hvertising. They're 8 biologically-programmed desires that everyone has. If you appeal to these in your Amazon bullet points and description, customers will be motivated to buy without necessarily knowing why.
(1) Survival, enjoyment of life, life extension.
(2) Enjoyment of food and beverages.
(3) Freedom from fear, pain and danger.
(4) Sexual companionship.
(5) Comfortable living conditions.
(6) To be superior, winning, keeping up with the Joneses.
(7) Care and protection of loved ones.
(8) Social approval.
I'll give you an example: perfume and cologne, body fragrances.
Really? Magic scented water that you spray on your body for $100 a bottle? That's not necessary for survival.
But that doesn't matter, because the fragrance industry sells using the Life Force 8. The market is worth $28 billion dollars annually.
Fragrances aren't sold like this:
This fresh-smelling cologne comes in a modern 30mL bottle that dispenses a scent other people love.
Yes, that's what it physically does. But those are features, not benefits. It doesn't hit you on a biological level. Fragrances are sold like this:
This cologne sends luscious, sexy girls flocking to you. Don't buy it if you can't handle the attention! In just minutes, you'll have other guys wondering what your secret is.
In this biologically-infused example we see:
(LF8 #1) Enjoyment of life ("attention")
(LF8 #4) Sexual companionship ("luscious, sexy girls")
(LF8 #6) To be superior, winning ("your secret"; notice how this article opens with telling you a secret?)
It also doesn't hurt that there's a promise of fast results with the phrase "in just minutes".
That's stupid, you think. I wouldn't write copy like that first example.
Yet, 95% of sellers are writing their Amazon listings with a list of features instead of pressing primal buttons. Let people imagine how much better life will be after they buy from you, deliver on that promise, and you’ve got them for life.
(5) THE DESCRIPTION
The description must be infused with the Life Force 8 as well, but we've already covered that. So now, we're going to talk about something unique to descriptions: formatting.
How do you create high-converting product descriptions?
You have two options: use text only and format it with HTML (hypertext markup language), or use Enhanced Brand Content (EBC). I’ll address the incumbent HTML first, and the newer EBC second.
HTML is "a standardized system for tagging text files to achieve font, color, graphic, and hyperlink effects on World Wide Web pages."
A product description with HTML is easier to read versus a block of text. By the way, HTML can only be used in the description, not bullet points.
Here's a description for a vegetable spiralizer. This niche is notoriously competitive, which calls for optimized listings. I wasn't disappointed.
Here's another description, also from page 1 of the search "vegetable spiralizer". The writing's fine, but it's one block of text because it doesn't use HTML formatting.
No bullet points, no bold text, no spaces. Just a block. No one's going to have the patience to read this. No offence to the seller, of course, it looks like a great product. I'm only talking about the listing in terms of the HTML in the description.
So we have one description with HTML, and one without.
Let's take the former example, and see what the text would look like when entered in Seller Central. We'll be using the following HTML code:
<b> to start bold text
</b> to stop bold text
<p> for the start of a paragraph break
</p> for the end of a paragraph break
Here's what you'd write in Amazon to display the description shown in the screenshot above:
<p><b>Eating Healthy and Creating Delicious Vegetable Meals Easily with the All-New Improved Brieftons 5-Blade Spiralizer! Money Back Guarantee!</b></p><p>If you love the Brieftons Tri-Blade Spiralizer, you will find there are even more good reasons to love the Brieftons 5-Blade Spiralizer.</p><p>We dissected an already great product and asked ourselves how it could be made better. And the result is a new edition with these integrated features you won't find in any other competing products:</p><p>✓ Comes with 2 additional blades (ultra thin 2mm angel-hair blade and curly-fry blade), for a total of 5 blades to cater for all your spiralizing needs</p><p>✓ Ingenious foldable design for the most compact storage and transport (especially useful for traveling)</p><p>✓ Reinforced, heavy-duty, stainless steel forward handle (instead of weak plastic forward handles that can break easily). This is something you definitely want to see in your spiralizer if you want it to last for more than a few months</p><p><b>What can you do with the complete set of 5 blades?</b></p><p>Angel-hair blade for 2mm ultra thin noodles</p><p>Fine-shredding blade for 3mm-wide noodles</p><p>Crude-shedding blade for 6mm-wide noodles</p><p>Flat blade for ribbon-like noodles</p><p>Curly-fry blade for 10mm wide x 6mm thick curly fries</p><p>Whether it is making garnishes to turn your dinner platter into a gourmet delight, preparing the most beautiful salads to wow your guests, making a healthy raw food pasta or fresh potato chips, you can do it all.</p><p><b>Instructions and 3 exclusive Brieftons recipe ebooks are included to get you started instantly.</b></p><p>Our guarantee is what we say it is. If you are not satisfied with your purchase, simply contact us for a full refund.</p><p><b>For the utmost peace of mind in buying your spiralizer, think Brieftons, and choose the Brieftons 5-Blade Spiralizer now!</b></p>
HTML is ugly in a Word doc, but paste this into Amazon and watch it emerge as a masterful sales asset.
It even ends with a little call to action, i.e. "choose the Brieftons 5-Blade Spiralizer now!" Compare that to just "choose the Brieftons 5-Blade Spiralizer", and you'll realize the power of "now". That's a little Eckhart Tolle pun for those who are... so inclined. Sorry.
Now, 3 power words that can help you sell:
> Use “because”. Robert Cialdini asserts that “when we ask someone to do us a favor we will be more successful if we provide a reason. People simply like to have reasons for what they do.”
Sentence 2: I have 5 pages. May I use the Xerox machine, because I am in a rush? (94% success rate)
Sentence 3: Excuse me, I have 5 pages. May I use the Xerox machine because I have to make copies? (93% success rate even though that’s nowhere close to a good reason)
> Use “value” instead of “price”. Value is about advantages. Price is about what the customer loses in the form of money spent. People are programmed to avoid loss more than seek gains. It's called “loss aversion”. You may have noticed that I began by explaining how I was “losing money” on Amazon and describe listings as “bleeding cash”.
> Use “imagine” to allow the buyer to test-drive life with your product post-purchase. Even if they haven’t decided to buy yet, it doesn’t hurt to imagine the advantages, right?
Alright, now let’s discuss the newer Amazon Enhanced Brand content. EBC.
Ditch the HTML altogether and add images and text, all in a selection of formats.
It looks great (objectively better than just plain text), so I imagine that it converts better.
That said, some reviews of the program indicate that EBC content doesn’t index in Amazon’s search engine, so you don’t currently (as of early 2017) have a ranking benefit from written EBC content included in the same way that HTML text descriptions have, with some accounts indicating a drop in sessions after switching over.
I suspect that this is a temporary problem and in the fullness of time, Amazon will index EBC text. It’s still early days. Keep an eye on it. It looks great, and it’s promising.
(6) SEARCH TERMS
In Seller Central, go to your listing, then Edit > the "Keywords" tab. You'll see something like this. Each text box has a character limit (varies). Use all of the space. It isn't visible to customers, so go nuts.
Think of keyword inclusion as a pyramid:
> At the very top, your lead keyword that you put in your title first.
> Then, the 3 keywords we hit in the rest of your title.
> Then, the keywords in your bullets and description, which also gets indexed.
> And then, we have the search terms. This is a different set.
Don't use keywords you've already used elsewhere. Repeat words are redundant and don't grant you any extra ranking power, as articulated by Amazon in their international smash hit “Optimize Listings for Search & Browse” (Cannes Film Festival Winner 2019):
“Also, there is no additional benefit in providing keywords except when they contain unique information such as alternate names, abbreviations, etc. that doesn’t fit in any other non-keyword field.”
The most instructive part of this article is the chart at the bottom.
> In the "Diamond Flower" example, you shouldn't use those because they’re redundant. So this section is for keywords that you haven’t used in your title, bullets, or description, but are still relevant and will help more customers find the product.
> Don’t use other brand names because they’re unrelated to the product itself. If you want to compare, I think you could do so suitably in the product description.
> Again, with the "popcorn and ice cream" thing, you want the intersection of high-traffic and high-relevance.
> “Colors of India” vs. “Color, color, Colors”. This is good news, because it frees up room to write different words instead of worrying about capitalization, plurals, and punctuation. Where I’m from, Canada, we spell it like this: “colours”. Is that accounted for? How will I sleep in my igloo at night without knowing the answer?
> "Lord of the Rings" and "LOTR". So, abbreviations are welcome.
> Alternative names for the product. Again, just hop into the Google Keyword Planner or MerchantWords to see what else people are looking for.
> Related subject matter and characters. I’d also add to this that, if you’re an insider in the niche in which you’re selling (which is preferable), include as many insider terms as you can here. Something only hunters, biologists, or Canadians understand. What do we all have in common? We all had to wrestle a polar bear as a rite of passage ritual.
Between Google Keyword Planner Tool, MerchantWords, and another free online tool called keywordtool.io, you should be just fine.
If you choose to work with my team, we have MerchantWords, which saves you time spent in research and writing, and also $30/month.
(7) OTHER KEYWORDS
Once you enter your search terms in the backend, you’ll see some other fields. These are particular to your product and, from what I can tell, this is a “can’t hurt, might help” scenario.
But honestly, not all tasks are created equal. Considering Pareto's Law, creating your title, bullets, description, and photos will account for 80% of your results.
Give those fields your best keywords. Then, if you have ones that (a) have not yet been used and (b) apply to the attributes that Amazon’s asking for in these additional fields, go for it.
Similar to the Search Terms section, the terms you enter here depend on your product. No set prescription.
When editing your listing, head to “More Details” then find “Category (item-type)”. This allows you to classify your item as you see fit.
Accuracy is key; the category should be true to the product.
This affects your sales because shoppers often browse by category. If you’re in a category that isn't relevant to you, fewer sales. The easiest way to determine what category to choose is to look at a batch of 15 competitors (if there are any, Mr. Blue Ocean Strategy!), and see how they’re categorized. Then, check their estimated monthly revenues with a tool like Jungle Scout to see if there’s a correlation between where listings are categorized and their revenues.
(Scenario 2) If competitors are all in the same category and have bad revenues, what will you differently?
(Scenario 3) If competitors are in various categories, check their monthly revenues to find a correlation between category and sales.
(3.1) If category doesn’t affect revenue, choose the category that’s more accurate for your product.
(3.2) If category does affect revenue, choose the category with more revenue.
And remember, some Amazon categories require sellers to be “ungated” in order to sell there. So, of course, don’t choose a product category that you’re not allowed to sell in. Here’s the full list of Amazon’s gated categories. The most notable ones include Beauty, Clothing, and Health & Personal Care.
(9) PPC KEYWORDS
Do you run Amazon pay-per-click ads? You should!
Aside from allowing you to buy your way onto page 1 in 30 minutes, PPC has a positive side-effect: listing optimization. Go through your ads. Find your keywords that have an ACoS below 25% and see if you can work them into your listing's title, description, headline, and backend keywords. Some will integrate well.
For example, I had a client who sold silicone baking mats.
They were one of the first!
Just kidding, they were probably #245.
Anyway, after running Amazon PPC for 3 months, the keyword “silicone baking pan” earned $4 for every $1 spent. It wasn’t intuitive, because that’s a different product than a baking mat, but it turned out that people who were searching for pans bought mats.
So, they took this winning keyword and put it into a bullet point. I don’t quite recall what it said, but it was something like “The ease of tin foil and the re-usability of a silicone baking pan”.
They made an extra $55/day from this one change. Not bad.
It's the art of enhancing your listing over time based on fruitful keywords. The more ads you run, the better your listing gets. How beautiful is that? You’re most welcome to use this one.
Use FBA (Fulfilled by Amazon) and not FBM (Fulfilled by Merchant).
Aside from handling your shipping and most customer service, using FBA makes you instantly eligible for Prime 2-Day shipping. Plus, there's colloquial evidence to suggest that Amazon favors FBA-fulfilled listings in search results. And why wouldn't they? Amazon increases their revenues that way!
If at all possible, use FBA (Fulfillment by Amazon).
It's just the beginning...
That’s it. What a journey!
Work with us, and we’ll deliver a powerful, efficient asset that makes recurring income for years to come. We even do free revisions if needed, so that what we deliver is true to your vision.
Email firstname.lastname@example.org or...